Ashok Singh, VP, Indian National Trade Union Congress (INTUC) and Pawan Kumar, VP, Bhartiya Mazdoor Sangh (BMS) on recent workers protests, their demands and the handling of outcry by the states. The conversation was moderated by Asad Rehman, Senior Correspondent, The Indian ExpresAsad Rehman: We saw the labourers’ protests in Noida. What is the reason for this unrest?Ashok Singh: The reason is the unrest in their lives. When after working for a month, their salary will be Rs 10,000, out of which they spend Rs 3,000 on rent, what will they eat? What kind of education will they provide to their children? Five things are necessary for life: health, education, employment, skill, and social security. How will this happen in Rs 10,000? Today, all 10 trade unions are together. Previously, BMS were also with us; but since Mr Modi arrived, that has changed. But our sentiments are together in this. These are basic problems but they don’t listen to us.We have been meeting for more than 10-12 years, but ever since Mr Modi became the PM, the Indian Labour Conference (ILC) has not been held. It used to happen every year at Vigyan Bhawan and the PM would inaugurate it. It was a medium for workers, government and employers to hold discussions. Committees were formed, labour laws were made. That system is not in effect anymore. Now there is a monarchy. They made the Labour Code without consulting anyone. Who are they making these labour codes for? They say they are making it for the labour. Who is its chairman? Hiranmay Pandya, who is sitting in the US. There were no workers as members in the jury, no labour conference was held, and yet the Labour Code was passed. Were those changes for the betterment? If you are getting Rs 50,000 and they change it to Rs 40,000, will anyone like it? These changes have been made so that companies employing fewer than 300 people can fire their workers without any notice. There is no security. And if one forms a union and goes for the registration process, if the Labour Commissioner rejects, then you cannot appeal anywhere. That is the system. In the past 12 years, there were five national strikes; 25 crore people participated. On February 12 and April 1, black bands were worn across the country. No media houses paid any attention to it. There is no freedom of expression. The Constitution is finished. When you destroy the base, what will remain? Our Labour minister (Anil Rajbhar), said, ‘Pakistanis have come here’. The CM also called it a ‘conspiracy’. Noida Police Commissioner, Laxmi Singh, also said that the workers’ protest was largely driven by misinformation and coordinated by “Pakistan-based X handles” aiming to cause unrest. What is the administration doing when the Pakistanis are entering? The employers are not taking any interest or talking to the workers. Until when will the workers suffer? No trade union went to them; they came out on the streets themselves.Pawan Kumar: I see two big reasons for these protests and demonstrations. Firstly, the minimum wage has not been revised in the last 14 years. Which means it includes eight years of this UP government and five-six years of the previous government. Secondly, the minimum wage is not implemented by the employers. Specifically in Noida, the Labour Department says that around 600 outsource agencies are registered, but in reality, around 1500 agencies are working. Which means about 900 agencies are not even registered. There can be no bigger failure for the Labour Department and district administration than this. Even though the labourers do not receive the minimum wage, the employers are charged fully for the same services. In Noida, after 12 hours of duty, workers get minimum wage and even that is not the full amount. There is no extra money for overtime. There are zero weekly-offs and no revision of minimum wages. Gradually, several other things also got piled/accumulated, which eventually led to this.Some unwanted elements also joined the workers. Workers will never resort to arson. These anti-social elements enter protests for their own vested interests. There is no doubt that this is the failure of intelligence, even if it is the Pakistani agencies that had entered as per the government. Workers are demonstrating for three days and intelligence has no idea what will happen tomorrow? The Deputy Commissioner is also calling people up? Several central trade union leaders from the BMS were put under house arrest. When you house arrest central trade union leaders, who is the administration talking to? An inspector threatened my district secretary: ‘If you support the agitation, we will put you behind bars’. If the administration has this attitude, it is unlawful. Noida Authority is talking. Every other department is talking. Where is the Labour Department? IAS officers do not have the sensitivity that labour department officials have.Also, ever since the Mulayam Singh government, labour inspections have been banned and no official, including the labour inspector, Deputy Labour Commissioner, can inspect without prior government permission. This has been happening for 15–20 years now. Factory inspections do not happen. A phrase that has unfortunately become popular is ‘remove Inspector Raj’. Fine, remove it. Remove the income tax inspectors, where there are two parties. But here we have a third party who is voiceless — the worker. But it is the labour inspector who is there to protect them. He/she is the voice for the voiceless. In the end, the only one who will be removed is the Labour Inspector. When these factors combine, such incidents occur. Once the incident took place, they revised the minimum wage in about eight hours. And the government also admitted that life in Noida is expensive compared to that in Lucknow, Varanasi or Prayagraj. They increased there by 15 per cent and by 25 per cent here.Story continues below this ad Pawan Kumar, VP, BMSJatin Anand: While the workers’ welfare issue has not changed in 14 years, a lot has changed in our country. If we talk about BMS, the chief (sarsangchalak) has on different occasions talked about labourers. But has the issue of workers’ welfare not come up with senior BJP and NDA leaders in 14 years?Pawan Kumar: We do not have any discussion or talk with political parties on this. Instead, we negotiate with the governments as they have solutions. From time to time, we have raised our concerns with the government but they haven’t given any attention. These are the ill effects of the same.Jatin Anand: Are you talking about Central or State government?Pawan Kumar: I am talking of the state government. In our country, there are talks about formalising the informal sector but in practice, the formal sector is being made informal. The percentage of contract systems has increased. Whether it be the state or central government or a private factory or institution, a contractor is a contractor. He is the outsourced agency. In the government sector, in the organised sector, about 87 per cent are contract workers now. Is this ‘informal to formal’ or ‘formal to informal’?Story continues below this adNikhil Ghanekar: The g overnment has an e-Shram scheme, a comprehensive national database developed by the Labour Ministry to register and support unorganised workers. How is your union working with the government to promote this? Has the government tried to increase the safety net for workers?Ashok Singh: The inspections were stopped during the government of Mulayam Singh. But the current government should have changed the policies if they were problematic. They haven’t done that yet. If you look at the BJP’s agenda, there is nothing about labour; there is only capital and capitalism. That’s why there are only capitalists in the labour code committee. That’s why the Indian Labour Conference has not happened since 2015. We wrote a charter of demands, which was sent to the PM, but he hasn’t called us to talk in the last 11 years. We have 40 crore young population in this country. The farmer, worker, youth and soldier are the pillars of the country. If you weaken them, won’t the country become weak? Ashok Singh, VP, INTUCPawan Kumar: The government held 41 meetings on labour codes. You can file an RTI and ask which organisations were present. Representatives from all 11 organisations sat in the labour code meetings and everyone gave their suggestions in writing. Since it’s a tripartite talk, the employer also sits there.As for the e-Shram portal, until now, we were continuously talking about the unorganised sector, but governments weren’t listening. An unexpected situation arose in the country with COVID. A large number of workers hit the streets to go home and this is when it came to the government’s attention. So the government launched the e-Shram portal and approximately 30 crore people have registered. This has greatly benefited the poor workers on a large scale. The government launched the Pradhan Mantri Shram Yogi Maandhan (PM-SYM) pension scheme. We have linked people to Ayushman Bharat on a large scale so that their families get health benefits. Different types of confederations work and take these things down to the grassroots.Story continues below this adAanchal Magazine: With the central union leaders kept under house arrest in UP, the recent protests are being called ‘leaderless’. In various organisations and companies, they are not giving recognition to central unions now compared to earlier situations. How are you further evolving your role as trade unions?Pawan Kumar: For the first time, something has appeared in the Labour Code: recognition of the union. Before this code, there was no system for trade union recognition. Recognition depended on the management’s whim. Whether you had 90 per cent or 95 per cent of the votes, it didn’t matter if you weren’t in the management’s good books. Now, at 51 per cent, a sole bargaining agent will be formed, meaning workers will get the right to vote. If no union secures 51 per cent, a negotiating council will be formed with 20 per cent. This will be the first time an authorised committee for talks will be formed. Previously, a committee was formed for 100 people; now, under the Section 3 Act, a grievance redressal mechanism will be formed even for 20 people. And because of this, the role of unions will increase, not decrease. There are some things where we have raised concerns and reservations. However, it is not like there is nothing. Unions will also need to upgrade their own workers’ skills as well. Union leaders also have to upgrade their skills. Only then will the benefit be realised.Aanchal Magazine: Do you believe Haryana handled the situation better compared to Uttar Pradesh? Also, regarding the statement by Noida DM, who said that if contractors do not implement the rules they will be blacklisted, how will that be monitored?Pawan Kumar: Over the past year, the Haryana government conducted a lengthy exercise. It spoke to employers and employees in all main towns and increased the minimum wage by 35 per cent. They completed that entire exercise. Because of that, the labour department there has a very active role. The district administration limits itself to law and order. The labour department plays a role in conciliation proceedings. Therefore, here too, the labour department should have a role. All agencies should be registered. The labour department should include representatives from all central labour organisations and state labour organisations. Committees named Shram Bandhu and Udyog Bandhu are formed in UP. They constitute them and make announcements that these representatives have joined them. I do not know what happens with Udyog Bandhu. But I know that Shram Bandhu meetings do not happen. These are meetings that the DM is supposed to hold regularly. We know ours do not. When those Shram Bandhu meetings happen, then monitoring will happen.Story continues below this adUpasika Singhal: After the protests, UP government revised the salaries. Is that revision enough? Was this revision just a stopgap measure or one to reduce people’s anger?Pawan Kumar: Yes, this wage increase is completely unsatisfactory because it is determined by a formula from 1957. They consider a family of three units. In the present situation, the three units are not enough. So these formulas should be changed. The government should fix the minimum wage after holding talks with all three parties.Drishti Jain: The workers don’t come to cities just to earn; they come to earn with dignity. They want fair working conditions, proper breaks, respectful treatment, and basic facilities. In some factories, there’s only one washroom for women across multiple floors, rude behaviour from employers, harassment of women, unsafe overtime conditions, among others. How do you see these demands moving forward?Pawan Kumar: The key issue is enforcement. The powers of factory inspectors must be restored. Right now, those powers have been weakened and replaced with self-certification. Without inspections, violations go unchecked. Employers who violate norms should face penalties, even arrest if necessary. Only then will conditions improve.Story continues below this adAshok Singh: Today, wages are often undercut, sometimes by 40–50 per cent below mandated levels and workers can be dismissed without notice. There is little accountability. This is a policy failure. The government sets minimum wages but enforcement is weak. Workers are left vulnerable, underpaid, disrespected, and insecure. When the system ignores reality, it loses credibility. Workers are struggling to survive, while policymakers remain focused on retaining power rather than addressing long-term issues.Harish Damodaran: Beyond restoring inspections, what structural changes are needed? How should collective bargaining and worker protections evolve, particularly when outsourcing agencies dominate hiring?Pawan Kumar: These protests may appear spontaneous, but they are not entirely so. Trade unions must acknowledge their own shortcomings. We need to be more active and engaged. Investment is essential, but it must not lead to exploitation. If workers have higher incomes, their purchasing power increases, which strengthens the entire economic cycle — production, consumption, and employment. Governments, regardless of party, must prioritise increasing workers’ purchasing power. That benefits everyone.Ashok Singh: The framework should begin with dialogue. Workers must be consulted about their problems.Jatin Anand: Where do gig workers fit into this?Story continues below this adPawan Kumar: We’ve made efforts to organise gig workers, though progress is uneven. Karnataka for instance, has done relatively better, while the Rajasthan government has only created boards without meaningful implementation. There is a need for social security and wage protections. Practices like ultra-fast delivery targets created unsafe conditions but some corrective steps have been taken. Organising gig workers remains a priority.