Delhi L-G VK Saxena and former NITI Aayog CEO Amitabh Kant talk about the challenges of urbanisation, making Delhi a world-class national capital and inculcating cultural literacy in the country. They were in conversation with Vandita Mishra, National Opinion Editor, The Indian Express.Vandita Mishra: Mr Kant, you just hung up your government boots after 45 years, you’ve resigned as the G20 Sherpa. How are you looking at the road ahead, the next 45 years?Amitabh Kant: I’m moving from the government to free enterprise. Because I’m trying to reinvent myself after nearly 47 years in government, it was important that I had worked in the state government, the Central government, done Make in India, done God’s Own Country and Incredible India.Mr Saxena, your office has been in the spotlight since you took over as the L-G. How are you coping with the fact that it has now shifted, there’s now a BJP chief minister in place in Delhi?VK Saxena: What you mentioned about the BJP government coming to power and me not being visible — I don’t agree with that. I was visible on the roads before and am so even now. In the last three years, I’ve done about 1,100 site visits within Delhi. The real Delhi is away from the NDMC area, places where there aren’t proper roads and sidewalks… dust everywhere and sewer lines overflowing. My effort will be to work with the current government to improve things. That’s my goal.Amitabh Kant: Just last week the L-G’s office did something revolutionary. If anyone wanted to open a restaurant, they had to run around the Delhi Police offices to get licences. It used to take a whole year. For the first time in 45 years, all the police clearances have been removed. All state governments should follow this.Mr Saxena, recently, the speculation was that you might be going to Kashmir.Story continues below this adVK Saxena: You should never pay attention to rumours. As long as I’m here, I will keep serving Delhi. I endorse Mr Kant’s views. There’s a real need to improve the ease of doing business. I had already approved 24×7 hotels last year for three-star, four-star and five-star categories. We will change Delhi soon.You came in as an outsider, moving from the corporate to the NGO sector, then the Khadi Commission, and now the L-G.VK Saxena: I’m not an outsider, I am an Indian. Vandita Mishra, National Opinion Editor, The Indian Express, with Delhi LG VK Saxena and former NITI Aayog CEO Amitabh Kant (Express photo by Abhinav Saha)Mr Kant’s journey, for example, is the traditional insider’s path — St Stephen’s, then JNU, and civil services. Do you think that as you rise through the ranks in the system, you are better able to bring about change? Or does coming into the system from outside let you see things with fresh eyes and do more?Story continues below this adVK Saxena: Every bureaucrat should spend at least six months in a corporate house. There, decisions involving crores are made in seconds. The focus is on quality and timely execution. Unfortunately, in the government it is a system of L1, where cost matters most, quality has no value. I have been pushing to prioritise quality over money.Mr Kant, you were a district collector in Calicut. Now, when you look back, 45 years later, are there learnings that you carried with you from your time there?Amitabh Kant: Calicut was the place where Vasco da Gama landed and discovered India. And they said if Vasco da Gama were to come back, he would find Calicut exactly the same. I demolished over 1,200 encroachments, built 26 roads and tore down five hotels. I faced 18 contempt of court cases. Vasco da Gama will never be able to say this is the same district, but I suffered for it. I did not get a posting for about 11 months. As a punishment posting, they made me secretary for tourism. Back then, nobody used to visit Kerala. I saw it as an opportunity to develop its backwaters, Ayurveda, boat rides and cultural art forms. So, every crisis was an opportunity for me and I used it to build God’s Own Country. (L-R) Sunil Kant Munjal, Chairman, Hero Enterprise; Harsh Pati Singhania, Chairman & MD, JK Paper Ltd; Dr Ambrish Mithal, Chairman & Head -Endocrinology & Diabetes,Max HealthcareIn 1992, the Babri Masjid was demolished and you organised a painting event as the District Collector, inviting painters to paint on the theme of communal harmony, and MF Husain joined in. Please tell us that story.Story continues below this adAmitabh Kant: Calicut’s population is 40 per cent Muslims, 40 per cent Hindus and the rest are Christians. It was a tense situation. The best way to change the atmosphere was to do something big. So, we got a 100-metre canvas in the heart of Calicut and all the top artists from Kerala to paint on communal harmony. That was a Sunday. On Friday, I called up MF Husain. I requested him to come and do the 10-metre stretch at the centre stage. He electrified the atmosphere. There were about 1,200 artists working on the canvas but there were like five lakh people sitting and watching. Everyone just forgot all the negativity.Vandita Mishra: Mr Saxena, when you took oath as the L-G, you recited a poem about communal harmony. What was that poem?VK Saxena: As far as I remember, it was: ‘Duniya mein andhera hai chirag ek jala do, sote huye Bharat ko utho phir se jaga do, Hindu hai na Muslim hai na Sikh Isaai, shaidaan hain watan par duniya ko dikha do, aapas mein lade khoon il bahaya hai bohot, par jo kuch bhi huya hai, usse accha hai bhula do’.Delhi is the first state where Eid prayers are no longer held on the streets. I remember inviting about 60 religious scholars, Ulemas, to Raj Niwas and asking why the Eid prayers happened in places that were dirty. I said, ‘You can only pray when you are clean and pure. That is what the Quran says.’ None of them had an answer. Since the Eid prayer only takes about four minutes, I suggested they split the time between 7 and 9 pm at the Eidgah. Things can also be solved through discussions. It’s not necessary to use force.Story continues below this ad Avantika Dalmia, Chairperson, Avanee FoundationBut there was not much discussion between you and the Aam Aadmi Party.VK Saxena: Mr Kejriwal and I have had long discussions; more than 65 times. The media has portrayed us as enemies. Our views might differ, but that did not mean there was no communication. I wanted development in Delhi but their mindset was different.How do you assess AAP’s work?VK Saxena: If they really wanted, Delhi’s face could have changed.Mr Kant, you talk about cities as the drivers of growth but cities have problems — unclear lines of responsibility, accountability and lack of coordination between agencies.Story continues below this adAmitabh Kant: If India wants to become a $35 trillion economy by 2047, your GDP has to grow about 12 times, per capita income has to grow 11 times and manufacturing has to grow 18 times. Cities are at the heart of all innovation, growth, progress and prosperity. India is about to see 500 million people moving into urban areas over the next four decades. India needs to focus on strong, well-planned and sustainable urban development.Mr Saxena, Delhi is a city of migrants. Yet when the pandemic hit, we saw them walk back to their villages on highways. Is Delhi better prepared now if something like COVID strikes again?VK Saxena: The government will be able to handle it. Around 24 hospitals are under construction. But the problem is that there was no planning about the budget for equipment or manpower. Even after four years, some hospitals are only about 20-40 per cent complete. Maybe five or six hospitals are over 90 per cent done. The (previous) government should have been better prepared.Delhi is also the national capital. And this is not how a national capital should be. Most people living here are from the labour class because things like electricity and water are free. There is nothing wrong with that. But India is a powerful country and if its capital looks like a slum city, how are you going to project it?Story continues below this adMr Kant, you were the CEO of NITI Aayog. Do you think our chief ministers recognise the importance and challenges of urbanisation?Amitabh Kant: Before I became the CEO of NITI Aayog, I was the CEO of the Delhi Mumbai Industrial Corridor. I met with all the CMs and told them to give us about 150-200 sq km to build new cities but every CM refused. I went to Mr Modi and he said, ‘What will you do with just 150? I will give you 750 sq km.’ Now Dholera City is being turned into a semiconductor city. India’s 15 major cities make up almost 35 per cent of its GDP. You improve the cities and the GDP will get a big boost.You paint cities as hubs of innovation and growth but there’s violence over language in Mumbai, a shocking murder in Patna and a rape incident in Kolkata. Urbanisation might not be the silver bullet solution.Amitabh Kant: I agree with you. You need an open-minded approach. We have to create a culture of bonhomie. Indian men need to learn to respect both Indian and foreign women. We need a lot more private entrepreneurs. Sunil Munjal is building the Brij Museum and Kiran Nadar is creating a world-class museum here.Story continues below this adMr Saxena, how do we build that civic culture in Delhi?VK Saxena: Dwarka is thriving after it was redeveloped. We need to build new cities the same way. I am trying to turn Narela into an education hub. We have also identified 75 acres for a world-class sports complex. The DDA has been told to acquire the land and develop a new city in relation to the UAR2. Right now, there are places where unauthorised constructions have already happened and you cannot just demolish them. Just last week I made a decision. Now, whenever DDA land is allocated, the fees charged will be one per cent instead of the earlier 10 per cent to attract maximum investment. Similarly, commercial rates that used to double are now 1.5 times.How do you build a brand for a country where women’s labour participation rate is one of the lowest in the world?Amitabh Kant: The latest survey shows the women labour participation ratio has gone up. In 2015, only 18 per cent of women had bank accounts. Today, 90 per cent of women have bank accounts. Around 70 per cent of the Mudra loans have gone to women. We provided 30 million electric connections to households and 120 million women who used to cook on firewood are now cooking on gas. All these household water connections have been made in the name of women.VK Saxena: When I was the chairman of the Khadi Commission, 90 per cent of the workforce was women and the turnover reached Rs 15,000 crore.Mr Kant, you spoke about how states must compete… there should be data and naming and shaming. But not all states are equal. Don’t you think cooperation is needed more than competition?Amitabh Kant: We have had cooperation for the last 75 years, we need brutal competition… among big states, among small states. When I was an officer, I did not know if my district was improving because data used to come six years later. Today, data is available in real-time. You can eliminate corruption, focus on outcomes, put the results out in the public domain and hold those who are not performing accountable.There are three subjects under the L-G’s control — land, public order and the police. The previous L-Gs mostly stuck to these three areas but you moved into other domains as well.VK Saxena: I am not just the L-G of Delhi, I am also the city’s administrator. If the Yamuna is dirty, it is my responsibility to ensure it is clean. It is my duty to get the Najafgarh drain cleaned. I started cleaning it. Unfortunately, my role was stayed when the CM went to the Supreme Court. If any positive work is happening, it should be supported, not opposed.*** Anant Goenka, Executive Director, Indian Express GroupAnant Goenka: One thing I find common across India is that there is no awareness of the culture of one’s city.Amitabh Kant: The people of Delhi are the most culturally illiterate people. We need to create museums and let young students go, learn and educate themselves. And the wealthy people in Delhi will have to play an important role in this.VK Saxena: Delhi can become a capital of heritage. More than 10,000 heritage buildings in Delhi are lying in bad shape. I visited Mehrauli October 2022 and saw dilapidated structures. I asked the DDA to start restoring it. Today at least 2-3 thousand people come daily. We have drifted away from our heritage. We need to bring people closer to it. Suhel Seth, Entrepreneur & ColumnistSuhel Seth: Why don’t you take over Gurugram? Just take it over in a non-hostile way so there’s some form of governance. You’ve got a Chief Minister who’s useless. A municipal commissioner who’s absent. If you want Brand India to succeed, every part of Brand India has to work.Amitabh Kant: Gurgaon today pays more taxes to Haryana than all the other cities combined. And if you can’t manage Gurgaon properly, it shows a huge failure of governance.Sonia Bhutani: What do you both like to do besides work?Amitabh Kant: I believe in working out from 7 to 8.30 am, sweating it out five days a week. I play golf two days a week. I believe in art and culture and think it’s important to keep myself culturally alive.VK Saxena: When the workload gets too much or things get tough, my favourite thing is to listen to old songs.Dr Sanjeev Bagai: The biggest problem in India, especially in Delhi-NCR, is air pollution. Why don’t we have a separate ministry dedicated to this?Amitabh Kant: What is needed is a multidisciplinary approach. The Central Air Quality Monitoring Mechanism was set up specifically for this purpose. What we need is tough, ruthless action. A big part of that is making sure that firewood burning during winters is replaced with gas. You need to shut down brick kiln factories outside Delhi. Delhi needs to switch to 100 per cent electric vehicles. All industrial units in and around Delhi should be made to switch over to gas. It is not just the pollution from Haryana and Punjab. There are many hard actions needed around Delhi.VK Saxena: It is basically impossible to get anything done in Delhi because so many agencies, ministries and departments are handling every little thing. Until we fix that, we just can’t move forward.